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  • Office Hours from December 3 were bumped to December 10, due to scheduling issues.

    Please feel free to fill in questions below - staff will be around to answer them at 4pm UTC on Thursday.

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    • Unanswered holdovers from last week (and the week before, as it turns out):

      FishTank wrote:
      OK, so: portability questions. :-)
      Customizing different media outputs
      Currently, .portable-infobox styling only applies to desktop. How can (or will we be able to) create vibrant experiences for other media (like (but not limited to) mobile) without breaking Portability?
      Tables
      Infoboxes are only a part of Portability, and one common article element that does not work as well portably are tables. Limitations and rendering of Table-based layout is one of the reasons why PIBs were created. For tables, what is a good pixel-width to aim for or a good practice to scroll or collapse larger dataset tables (as are often seen in game wikias)?
      Lua invokes vs Wikitext Templates vs Parser Functions vs Tag Extensions inside Portable Infoboxes
      Not everyone realizes this, but most of the above are processed at different times "under the hood" and cause alterations or errors depending on which are used. Is there a preferred order or method for best results inside a Portable Infobox? Is there a speed difference in how fast the page renders or how difficult things are for the processor?

      And, odd question: Tabbers inside PIBs can be used for images. On one game wikia that I can think of, they use this to show different images of a given character based on which game this character appeared in. They also use images of the game title as their sorting element. Can images be used as Tabber "titles"?
      And from 2015-11-19: Tabbers are great for images, but some wikias (Final Fantasy Wiki for example) use them in data items or at the top-level (multiple Infoboxes, effectively, with different information per game platform). Tabbers, admittedly, don't work well on mobile. What are some things that you might suggest for organizing these in a portable way, or can Tabber be expanded in the future for others in this situation?


      Technobliterator wrote:
      Alright, let's have a go at something that may or may not be easier to answer... Any plans for <group>s within <groups>? I've brought up this idea before on Community Central, but the idea where you can wrap a group within a group, in order to prevent issues where people can't make a whole collapsible section with multiple rows of horizontal <data> tags.


      Fandyllic wrote:
      I have only one question right now: When is the mobile skin preview on Desktop edit mode going to get fixed to match what the actual mobile skin renders?


      And two (1, 2, 3) follow-ups for Tor and Shareif that weren't actually questions, but suggestions in response to their answers. They were in "after the buzzer" and are noted here.

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    • Right, last week we focused too much on the future. So lets try some of the present issues:

      Charts
      Charts are one of the most used elements in wikia. But most of the implementations are not mobile friendly.  Current solutions on Wikia include Extension:Timeline, Module:Chart, and javascript generated charts. Most of these are not portable, but at least Extension:Graph seems to be a more powerful and portable version heavily used by WMF.

      Any chance of backporting that extension or if that's not possible what tips would staff have for improving them on mobile ?

      Infobox preview tool
      First of all, I have to say that Staff did fantastic work with the previewer. But it is a power user tool.
      Is there any chance of having a preset for invocation, and also the ability to send that data to visual or code-editor for easy publishing e.g. to draft page, without copy & pasting, and maybe set the template field to an arbritrary page (this is useful for Mentoring:Requests)?
       ContentHandler

      One technology that could help with structured data and portability currently lacking in Wikia's MediaWiki port is mw:Manual:ContentHandler#Rationale. This would also prevent pointless pages in insights like these (.CSS) or links caused by modules, see [1].  

      Are there any drawbacks to moving to a technology like this?

      Special:Templates

      What are your thoughts on:

      • More meta-data - e.g. description of a template
      • Sorting options - e.g. sort by name, etc
      Special:Flags
      • Custom groups - any chance of collapsing custom groups in the Flags entry point ?
      • Temporary flags - perhaps it would be good to set some time for a flag to expire? Using lua I can program it to not show anything, will a flag not show when there isn't any returned content in a template?
      • Dismissing flags on mobile or desktop on demand?

      Infobox 

      • Someone once asked for conditional theme-source Thread:2361, thoughts?
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    • Round 2:

      Gamification:

      For example, images seem to be important for Seo and enriching an article. A simple game such as [1] by a Gamification pioneer could help make this task less of a chore.

      A tagging game for readers to indicate which pages  or components don't look well on mobile, to suggest micro-edits, or to remove inline styling detected by a tool like Resources#wiva

      • Have you guys given thought to gamifying some of these portable features ?

      And before you say "achievements exist". That's really not applicable for anonymous users. I've also already designed a couple of simple games  w:c:dev:jumbles, w:c:dev:spellingbee that could be adapted.

      See also:

      https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikidata-game/

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    • I noticed that a Mediawiki page, Mediawiki:Handheld.css seems to exist but has no affect. What purpose does this page serve? It would be nice if PIs could be styled in the mobile skin with that page.

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      1. Will the <caption> field be reactivated for a PI <image> tag that is rendering a tabber? (The caption currently does not show up.)
      2. Will the javascript that makes tabbers work inside PI image fields be ported to the monobook skin? (The tabber shows up, but nothing happens when you click on the tabs in the monobook skin).
      3. Will the <gallery type="slideshow"> be supported in the <image> tag of a PI?
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    • Moviesign wrote:
      1. Will the <caption> field be reactivated for a PI <image> tag that is rendering a tabber? (The caption currently does not show up.)
      2. Will the javascript that makes tabbers work inside PI image fields be ported to the monobook skin? (The tabber shows up, but nothing happens when you click on the tabs in the monobook skin).
      3. Will the <gallery type="slideshow"> be supported in the <image> tag of a PI?


      The first two of those should be reported by Special:Contact/bug. I'll leave Tor and Shareif to answer the last one.

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    • No. 1 and 2 reported.

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    • Questions for this week:

      Does Wikia have some ideas percolating for how to deal with big multi-column tables on mobile? Perhaps some new non-HTML type way to mark up tables that could possible break up rows into PI-style stacked data presentation?

      I suppose a very clever lua module could be made to do this...

      Since Wikipedia and Wikia's versions of Lua/Scribunto appear to be diverging, will there ever be Wikia specific Help pages for the Wikia eccentricities?

      Maybe the w:c:dev:Lua templating/Reference manual is already close to this (although it may be just an old version of the current one)?

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    • Moviesign wrote:

      2. Will the javascript that makes tabbers work inside PI image fields be ported to the monobook skin? (The tabber shows up, but nothing happens when you click on the tabs in the monobook skin).

      For a very long time, Wikia has said that monobook is not supported, so they could always fall back on this. Also, maybe tabber will be deprecated for PIs, so it may never fully work?

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    • I converted a couple of infobox templates to the portable versions, and I noticed right away that the infobox images are not being used for the article thumbnails used in the "Read More" section at the bottom of each article, nor on the category pages; instead, the first non-infobox image is used. These are images with original sizes larger than 300x300 so their size shouldn't be an issue.

      I don't know how these office hours work - I'll actually be at work at 4pm UTC. Are responses added to this thread?

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    • Horseshoe Crab wrote:
      I converted a couple of infobox templates to the portable versions, and I noticed right away that the infobox images are not being used for the article thumbnails used in the "Read More" section at the bottom of each article, nor on the category pages; instead, the first non-infobox image is used. These are images with original sizes larger than 300x300 so their size shouldn't be an issue.

      I don't know how these office hours work - I'll actually be at work at 4pm UTC. Are responses added to this thread?

      That is a reported bug, particularly if the images are in a gallery. Responses are added to this thread.

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    • FishTank wrote: That is a reported bug, particularly if the images are in a gallery. Responses are added to this thread.

      Thank you.

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    • Since I'm going to be busy most of tomorrow, I'll post questions now so they can hopefully be answered...

      1. Divs replacing tables for layout. Now, I know you guys already said that you were working on making tables for data portable and replacing tables for layout with divs, but are there any plans for any standard divs for layout to be introduced?
      2. Groups within groups for collapsible sections. Is this still going to happen?
      3. Final PortableInfoboxes. Are there any plans for a verison of portableinfoboxes to be made final, for the team to move onto other portability developments?
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    • Technobliterator wrote:
      Since I'm going to be busy most of tomorrow, I'll post questions now so they can hopefully be answered...
      1. Divs replacing tables for layout. Now, I know you guys already said that you were working on making tables for data portable and replacing tables for layout with divs, but are there any plans for any standard divs for layout to be introduced?
      2. Groups within groups for collapsible sections. Is this still going to happen?
      3. Final PortableInfoboxes. Are there any plans for a verison of portableinfoboxes to be made final, for the team to move onto other portability developments?
      1. That's not really what he said. "We do not want to introduce another way of creating tables (right now tables are created via HTML or wikitext), but we are working on identifying which tables are used correctly to represent tabular data and which are misused pieces of article layout. After learning which are which, we will start analysing data and making decisions."
      2. Sorry, forgot to copy that as an unanswered question. Will edit it in above.
      3. I think it's safe to say that the current public release version is 1.1 (with the addition of tabbed images), but that you should expect incremental development (1.2, etc) and bug fixes ramping up to a 2.0. Other Portability developments (if you mean what I think you mean) will probably be alongside 2.0. More is coming, I promise you. There's not a firm date for 2.0, but that's as close as you're likely to get to a complete answer to your question at this time.
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    • @FishTank:

      I don't know about the internal versioning, but apparently portable infoboxes are V 0.1 according to Special:Version.

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    • FishTank wrote:

      1. That's not really what he said. "We do not want to introduce another way of creating tables (right now tables are created via HTML or wikitext), but we are working on identifying which tables are used correctly to represent tabular data and which are misused pieces of article layout. After learning which are which, we will start analysing data and making decisions."

      Yeah, but I was wondering if, once they learn which is which, they were going to introduce a set of div classes that communities could use to make things easier to switch.

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    • @Staff:

      There have been a couple of people complaining that they are being told to convert the generic infoboxes brought in by a staff bot from starter wikia. Is there any chance that you could run a bot to replace classic infoboxes with portable infoboxes whenever it detects that they aren't being used in any pages, and/or have never been touched?

      Maybe with the exception of templates.wikia that probably likes to keep the olde infoboxes. It would also be a simple way to promote these infoboxes in many wikias that don't use any infobox at all.

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    • Umm... Isn't it like 5:45 PM UTC, right now?

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    • I have almost 1,000 templates that need to be classified. Is there any way I can use a bot to do this? I hate the fact that every template has to be done by hand. I wish it could be done by hidden category or some other way that could be automated.

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    • Fandyllic wrote: I have only one question right now: When is the mobile skin preview on Desktop edit mode going to get fixed to match what the actual mobile skin renders?

      Good question. I've just created a ticket for that. It'll probably get fixed in the next year :)

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    • Moviesign wrote:
      I have almost 1,000 templates that need to be classified. Is there any way I can use a bot to do this? I hate the fact that every template has to be done by hand. I wish it could be done by hidden category or some other way that could be automated.

      As I understand it, one will soon be able to adjust classifications from inside Special:Templates, though I don't know if that's confirmed nor the timetable.

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    • Dianafa wrote:

      Good question. I've just created a ticket for that. It'll probably get fixed in the next year :)

      Hey, Diana. Welcome! Will you be covering Office Hours today, since it seems the rest of the Poznań office is running a bit behind the 4pm UTC schedule? 

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    • Thank you, Diana for creating that ticket. I understand that others in the office had double meetings booked and were not able to attend, so I'm going to bump this Thread to next week and leave it open.

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    • Dianafa wrote:

      Fandyllic wrote: I have only one question right now: When is the mobile skin preview on Desktop edit mode going to get fixed to match what the actual mobile skin renders?

      Good question. I've just created a ticket for that. It'll probably get fixed in the next year :)

      Umm... thanks. It's a bit disturbing that there was not already a ticket for this.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:

      Dianafa wrote:

      Fandyllic wrote: I have only one question right now: When is the mobile skin preview on Desktop edit mode going to get fixed to match what the actual mobile skin renders?

      Good question. I've just created a ticket for that. It'll probably get fixed in the next year :)

      Umm... thanks. It's a bit disturbing that there was not already a ticket for this.

      I think the problem is that the question is broad. There are many elements that might render properly, and others that aren't so obvious to the developers, perhaps a list of missing functionality would help, in a page like https://portability.fandom.com/wiki/Portability/Bugs.

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    • Dessamator wrote:

      Fandyllic wrote:

      Dianafa wrote:

      Fandyllic wrote: I have only one question right now: When is the mobile skin preview on Desktop edit mode going to get fixed to match what the actual mobile skin renders?

      Good question. I've just created a ticket for that. It'll probably get fixed in the next year :)

      Umm... thanks. It's a bit disturbing that there was not already a ticket for this.

      I think the problem is that the question is broad. There are many elements that might render properly, and others that aren't so obvious to the developers, perhaps a list of missing functionality would help, in a page like https://portability.fandom.com/wiki/Portability/Bugs.

      The question isn't that broad. The preview should render like the mobile skin or someone should document the differences. It shouldn't be the totally useless version we currently have.

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    • From the thread on Community Central:

      Emptylord wrote:
      Feature request: column limit on horizontal-layout-groups, to simulate flex-grids. I have a selection of fields that vary in quantity between 2 and... god knows, depending on the subject, and grouping them by 3s when that potentially means three rows with only one cell... :/

      Any chance that this gets implemented? I also have a case where there are between 2 and ca. 10 entries and I'd like to display a maximum of 3 or 4 in a single row. I could always do this with Lua, but I'd prefer not to if it became available "natively" :)

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    • As a programming note, so that we can assuage anyone who is waiting with bated breath: these questions are being tossed around the Poznań offices in preparation for a set of formal answers tomorrow. Today they are releasing the last code for this year, and are a bit busy. So, sit tight. Answers are coming!

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    • @FishTank @fandom I think it would be horribly hilarious, if you were asked to answer questions for the Office Hours, instead.

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    • Since I might be able to ask another question for answer tomorrow...

      Could we get an improved version (doesn't need to be extensively better) of Wikipedia:Comparable Lua functions to wikitext for the Wikia version of Lua?

      By improvements, I mean some better examples... the one for #switch is pretty bad.

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
      Since I might be able to ask another question for answer tomorrow...

      Could we get an improved version (doesn't need to be extensively better) of Wikipedia:Comparable Lua functions to wikitext for the Wikia version of Lua?

      By improvements, I mean some better examples... the one for #switch is pretty bad.

      Not sure how that is relevant to portability. You could import that page to dev.wikia, and we can improve any examples you believe are "pretty bad". Also, could you explain how the switch example is pretty bad?

      P.S. There is a somewhat similar page here:

      http://dev.wikia.com/wiki/Lua_templating/Converting_Wikitext_templates

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    • Okay, maybe just expand the dev page with more examples. The dev page switch example is loads better than the Wikipedia one.

      As far as I'm concerned, Lua info is about portability until it's obviously not. Does that make sense?

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    • Fandyllic wrote:
      Okay, maybe just expand the dev page with more examples. The dev page switch example is loads better than the Wikipedia one.

      I'm not exactly sure which examples need expanding because that is more like a reference and less of a step by step guide. There are loads of pages documenting lua / scribunto :

      As far as I'm concerned, Lua info is about portability until it's obviously not. Does that make sense?

      While I do generally agree, there are currently 0 portable tools that currently take advantage of lua.

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    • Customizing different media outputs
      Currently, .portable-infobox styling only applies to desktop. How can (or will we be able to) create vibrant experiences for other media (like (but not limited to) mobile) without breaking Portability?

      Current mobile skin is very minimalistic and, to be frank, very technical. We will be working on defining designs and style guide for mobile skin in 2016. During that process we will be exploring to what degree we want to introduce custom theming. More to come next year!

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    • Groups
      Alright, let's have a go at something that may or may not be easier to answer... Any plans for <group>s within <groups>? I've brought up this idea before on Community Central, but the idea where you can wrap a group within a group, in order to prevent issues where people can't make a whole collapsible section with multiple rows of horizontal <data> tags.

      That's a tough one. We want to support collapsible, horizontal groups, but on the other hand we do not want to increase complexity by introducing nested groups. When we find solution to it, we will implement it. So, if you have any ideas how to tackle it, please share! Your input is very welcome.

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    • Charts

      Charts are one of the most used elements in wikia. But most of the implementations are not mobile friendly. Current solutions on Wikia include Extension:Timeline,Module:Chart, and javascript generated charts. Most of these are not portable, but at least Extension:Graph seems to be a more powerful and portable version heavily used by WMF.

      Any chance of backporting that extension or if that's not possible what tips would staff have for improving them on mobile ?

      Oh, you just hit the spot with this one, as we are all huge data nerds :D We will think about unified graphing engine in 2016. Probably after first approached to data storing/querying solution.

      We will make sure that solution we pick will work great on mobile.

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    • Infobox preview tool

      First of all, I have to say that Staff did fantastic work with the previewer. But it is a power user tool.

      Is there any chance of having a preset for invocation, and also the ability to send that data to visual or code-editor for easy publishing e.g. to draft page, without copy & pasting, and maybe set the template field to an arbitrary page (this is useful for Mentoring:Requests)?

      Thank you for kind words. Its great to hear you like our tool. We will be working on extending our infobox editing tools in 2016 aiming at making them usable for broader audience. However, I cannot guarantee that they will be an extension of the current tool.

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    • Does Wikia have some ideas percolating for how to deal with big multi-column tables on mobile? Perhaps some new non-HTML type way to mark up tables that could possible break up rows into PI-style stacked data presentation?
      I suppose a very clever lua module could be made to do this...

      We just started playing with it. First step was to implement scrollable tables using material design patterns. The next step... changing data to infobox-like styles :)

      You can see how the 'new' tables look like here: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_4_unique_weapons

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    • A FANDOM user
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